Koliko su jevandjelja pouzdana?

Član
Učlanjen(a)
03.06.2010
Poruka
14.301
A Major Proof of the Bible
By Ernest L. Martin Ph.D., 1975
Edited by David Sielaff, May 2002​
Is the Holy Bible the Word of God? All of us need to know. A person’s very salvation can depend upon it.
Numerous books have been written supposedly to prove its validity. Some try to demonstrate it through prophecy, others through doctrine, and still others resort to pure emotionalism. Emotionalism is weak evidence. But while the other factors can help demonstrate the Bible’s credibility, there is one major proof that predominates over all others. It is the witness of Christ himself. If Christ can be proved, that is, if proof can be shown that he was who he said he was, that will go a long way in proving the Bible itself. Let us look at this important proof.
Are the Gospels Truthful?

We wish to stress the importance of Christ’s witness in the matter of the Old and New Testament canon. The central proof of the Bible is Christ. How do we know that the Christ of the Gospels is divine—that he is actually the Son of the Living God, and especially that he was resurrected from the dead?
If the Gospels are reliable, then no further proof should be needed. But are the Gospels and their witness true? Frankly, they need to be put to the test. There is nothing irreverent in this at all (1 Thessalonians 5:21). We need to apply to them the same basic rules to which scholars subject all other literature in order to prove its reliability.
There are four major rules for proving the credibility of documents. One, was the writer of the document an eyewitness to the events he records or was he at least a contemporary that lived in the same area of the events? Two, were there other independent witnesses to corroborate the evidence? Three, did those witnesses continue to maintain their testimonies until death—even to the jeopardy of their lives? Four, were there also hostile witnesses who would have reason not to believe the evidence but still say the events occurred? If all of these four factors are in solid evidence, then reliability becomes very acceptable. With the New Testament documents, we have all four evidences in a firm position for credibility.
Let us apply the first rule that the author must have been an eyewitness to the events.
The Gospel of Matthew, for example, was composed not much longer than a generation after the death of Christ, at a time when hundreds, if not thousands, of witnesses to the crucifixion and resurrection were still alive. Matthew himself had lived through the events he describes. That is contemporaneity. And it guarantees to us reliable testimony. Let us see why.
Suppose a writer in the Year 1970 wrote that a major prophet less than forty years before had gone throughout New York State, working so many miracles that thousands followed him from place to place; and that in Times Square, on July 4, 1935, when huge crowds of people were present, that same prophet had been executed at the behest of the government and the people of New York.
If such a thing had happened back in 1935, there would still be many thousands of witnesses alive to attest to it.
But on the other hand, if such an event never happened, could any living historian, writer, or journalist invent such a fallacious story, send it to the people of New York City, tell them to depend on its veracity with their lives, and persuade them to believe it? Of course not!
But Matthew did not have to fabricate the life of Christ. According to ancient testimony, he wrote out his account and sent it to the people of Judea—the very people who had witnessed Christ’s activities—within forty years of His crucifixion. If these things really did not happen as Matthew said, then Matthew and the other Gospel writers were leaving themselves open to real and dangerous criticism.
The Jews of Judea, of all peoples, would have known whether thousands had followed Jesus around the country. They knew whether or not the people of Jerusalem had used pressure upon the Roman authorities to crucify Him. Yet many of them—especially those in Jerusalem—came to believe the Christian message. They even became willing to give their lives for its truth. This fact alone is strong critical reason for accepting Matthew’s Gospel as relating substantial truth.
Other Testimonies

The second rule involves the having of independent witnesses to corroborate the evidence of an author.
The execution of Jesus Christ was not done in a corner with just a few witnesses around to testify to it. On the contrary, Josephus tells us that at least two million people used to gather every year around Jerusalem at the Passover season (the time when Christ’s crucifixion took place) (Wars, 6. 9. 3).
The more people there were to witness the event the more difficult it would become to invent and falsify matters. Christ’s death and his subsequent rejection by his own disciples became a well-known matter. The fact of many witnesses is a substantial safeguard to the veracity of the written records.
Now notice the importance of this. Not only was Matthew’s Gospel written when many thousands who could witness to its truth were still alive, but nearly twenty one other New Testament books were composed before 68 C.E.—within thirty-seven years of Christ’s death. Our World War I ended just over fifty years ago, yet thousands upon thousands of witnesses are still alive to testify to that holocaust. In 68 C.E. there would have been thousands of persons still living who had witnessed those earlier events in Jerusalem at the time of Christ.
Actually, with twenty-one of the New Testament books written within 37 years of Christ’s activities, we can call all these books contemporary records. These documents were written when there were still many witnesses to the events.
The Witness of the Apostles

The third rule concerns continued belief—even until death. Could any believe that the Gospel writers were consistently lying (a vice which they utterly condemned), yet they were remarkably willing to give up their lives for the "lies" which they were propagating? It might be imagined that one or two might lie (I am speaking humanly), but that every one of the apostles plus hundreds of others were liars is untenable.
It is related in the Gospel of Mark—a Gospel which was inspired by Peter’s preaching—as can be demonstrated—that Peter and all the apostles fled as cowards from the crucifixion scene. They did not remain anywhere in the vicinity of the Jewish and Roman authorities. And while we may doubt that they rejoiced to record their own cowardly display, this defection and flight of Christ’s key men was not a hidden matter. Let us see how their defection becomes an amazing testimony to the truth of Christ’s resurrection three days later.
The Law commanded the whole Jewish nation to celebrate three seasons with great solemnity: Passover, Pentecost, and Tabernacles. Almost invariably, the same people who journeyed to Jerusalem at Passover would be back there for the next festival. Therefore, Christ had directed his apostles to wait in Jerusalem until the Feast of Pentecost. One reason was to have the same Passover crowd who earlier had been present at the crucifixion back in Jerusalem fifty days later.
This time, those multitudes were to witness something different. They were no longer to witness a cowardly flight of Christ’s disciples. This time the people in Jerusalem would observe a display of such power and conviction by those once-afraid disciples, that nothing could humanly account for it.
These disciples, who had been terrified of that same crowd just fifty days earlier, now stood in the midst of them, each man witnessing with assurance and dynamic conviction to Christ’s resurrection. None was fearful for his own personal life.
The Book of Acts makes this plain. And, should there be someone who would question the reliability of this document, it should be noted that the Book of Acts was written within forty years after the first Pentecost—an event which took place in the midst of thousands of people in Jerusalem. The Book of Acts, in regard to literary criticism, is a contemporary document—written at a time when thousands of witnesses were still alive. There can be no doubt that Luke’s record in Acts is definitely reliable.
What needs to be noticed is the change of attitude in Christ’s apostles in those fifty short days. These men no longer feared the Romans. They no longer feared the Jews. They no longer doubted Christ’s mission, nor the fact of his resurrection. All eleven of the original apostles were consistent in their teaching. Is it possible to believe that they were all lying? The understanding of basic human psychology suffices against our believing that eleven individual men could one after another deceptively tell a crowd they once feared that Christ was now alive from the dead. They were jeopardizing their lives before that crowd by preaching Christ’s resurrection.
The Church Begins

Historians agree that the Christian church began on that Pentecost Day in the First Century. It is also well known that the Christian message began to be preached not long afterward around the world. The growth of the Christian church gained strong momentum by the end of the First Century. Thousands upon thousands from all nationalities were beginning to accept the central truth of Christianity—the fact of the resurrection of Christ.
This rapid spread of belief in Christ’s resurrection can only be accounted for by the astounding enthusiasm that must have been manifested by the first propagators. Are we to imagine that the Christian message could have grown so quickly if the original witnesses to the resurrection showed no emotion nor real conviction in the matter?
Peter continued to live for at least thirty-five years after the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ, and so did many of the other apostles. Could the message have grown without all the apostles’ continued conviction in that resurrection? Of course not. One thing must be admitted if nothing else: the people were convinced that the apostles were convinced.
Paul tells us that not only were the original eleven apostles witnesses that Christ was resurrected, but also over five hundred others saw him as well (1 Corinthians 15:6). Paul put out the challenge to people in 55 C.E. to go to Jerusalem and look up some of those five hundred for themselves. Even after a period for reflection of twenty-four years (in 55 C.E.) there were many in Jerusalem who still believed that Christ rose from the dead. If what Paul wrote was a lie, then he was leaving himself wide open to censure.
The Apostle Paul

The fourth rule for reliability concerns hostile witnesses. Did those who wished not to believe the evidence—even though they were there when it happened—still admit that it was a fact? Paul, among others, was such a witness. What was his belief concerning Christ’s resurrection?
Paul himself figures very prominently in proving the fact of Christ’s resurrection. Since all scholars are prepared to accept at least ten of Paul’s Epistles to be genuine, let us bring him forth as a witness. The rules of literary criticism show him to be reliable, for Paul wrote at a time when many of his statements could easily have been checked for their accuracy and truth.
Now look at Paul. He was a chief, if not the chief, antagonist of the Church in its very beginnings. The High Priest (the top ecclesiastical man in the Judaic nation) had personally given Paul the responsibility for exterminating the Christian church. And Paul went about his task, according to his own words, with fanatic zeal. He could appropriately be called the Adolf Eichmann of his day in his effort to overthrow the Church.
In that first period, before Paul’s conversion, there was no one more convinced of the non-resurrection of Christ than he. No one was more determined to disprove it. Paul also had many of the elders in the Jewish nation behind him. All of them had "theological" arguments against Christ’s resurrection. The practical and logical evidences did not shake their "theological" minds.
At first, Paul was vehemently against the practical evidence. His mind was closed to any acceptance of it. He must have used every intellectual argument to dispute the possibility of the resurrection which thousands of humble, practical-minded Christians were accepting.
Yet, what was the final belief of Paul? This is where he becomes a vital witness to the truth of the resurrection miracle and the divinity of Christ.
Paul, according to his own later testimony, while on the road to Damascus with authority from the High Priest to apprehend Christians, had his mind changed. It was a miracle that did it, but in a single day, this man of lofty intellect came to believe the practical evidence. And when the practical side became evident, his well-trained mind finally came to accept the abundant "intellectual" proofs found in the Old Testament.
From that day forward, Paul never turned back. Until the day he was executed for his beliefs, he steadfastly maintained his faith in Christ and the reality of Christ’s resurrection. Although it took a miracle to open his eyes, Paul finally became its chief exponent and propagator.
With Paul’s uncompromising acceptance, the proof of the resurrection becomes overwhelming. Here was a man who understood Judaic theology thoroughly. And not only was he trained in Judaism, but being born and reared in Tarsus of Asia Minor, the center of Stoic philosophy, he was well acquainted with the classical works of Gentiles. With the world’s knowledge in his mind—and most of it would have been very critical knowledge—he would have been one of the most unlikely persons to accept the resurrection of Christ. Yet he did accept the practical and intellectual proofs of this greatest of miracles.
He became so fervent in this belief that it was said he "turned the world upside down"(Acts 17:6). Everyone who came in contact with Paul was certainly assured that he was convinced of this major proof of Christianity. Because of Paul’s firm conviction and that of the other apostles, the Roman world became convinced of the legitimacy of Christ’s resurrection in a short three hundred years.
Surely, all this provable history demonstrates that the evidence unanimously supports the fact of Christ’s resurrection. No wonder Christ gave the resurrection sign as a major sign to the world that He was the Messiah. This is the one event that is so provable, by all human standards, that it takes little faith to believe it.
What This Means Towards Proving the Bible

The foregoing evidence of Christ’s resurrection proves that Christ must have been representative of a power that we can only call the God of the Universe. He must have been divine. Once forced to that conclusion, we are also constrained, by sheer reason, to accept the validity of Christ’s statements.
Thus, when Christ defined for us that the Old Testament was composed of the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms (Luke 24:44), His definition must be accepted. This is the exact division of the Old Testament that the Jews today accept as their official Scriptures. This means the Book of Esther (which many want to reject today) must be an inspired work because it occurs inside that Tripartite Division sanctioned by Christ. Esther is as inspired as Genesis or Isaiah.
Once Christ has been proved, then Joshua’s long day, the opening of the Red Sea and the creation of man must all be reckoned as having actually occurred. All of these events are in the Old Testament canon that Christ said was "the Scriptures" in Luke 24:45. All the books of that canon must be acknowledged as truthful once Christ has been proved.
Also, the twenty-seven books of the New Testament which witness to the truth of Christ’s resurrection must be acknowledged as containing essential truths.
The evidence of Christ and his divinity is not the only proof of the Bible, but it is the essential part.
Ernest L. Martin


 
Poslednja izmena:
Član
Učlanjen(a)
02.11.2012
Poruka
1.746
Naveo je kriterijume koji su validni ali vam ne idu u prilog.
Prvi:
Matthew probably originated in a Jewish-Christian community in Roman Syria towards the end of the first century A.D.
For many reasons scholars today believe otherwise—for example, the gospel is based on Mark, and "it seems unlikely that an eyewitness of Jesus's ministry, such as Matthew, would need to rely on others for information about it"[SUP][7][/SUP]—and believe instead that it was written between about 80–90 AD by a highly educated Jew.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Matthew
K
oji crni svedoci, van novog zaveta nemas nista u prvom veku a kasnije imas pominjanje hriscana koji veruju u Hrista. I jos jedna nebuloza, da su se potencijalni svedoci rodili u godini kada su navodno razapeli Isusa, mala je verovatnoca da bi bili zivi izmedju 80. i 90. godine a kamoli oni koji su bili odrasli u vreme navodnih dogadjaja.

Drugi:
Mateja nije pisan 37 godina posle navodnog dogadjaja nego 50-60 godina nakon navodnog dogadjaja. I jos jedna demonstracija falicne logike je porediti zivotni vek potencijalnih svedoka od pre 2000 godina sa zivotnim vekom ljudi iz 20. veka. Znaci nije 37 godina, zivotni vek dosta kraci pre dva milenijuma i da ponovim, van novozavetnih bajki, nema jedne jedine reci u prvom veku o navodnim dogadjajima.

Treci:

Historians believe that the author of Acts did not have access to a collection of Paul's letters. One piece of evidence suggesting this is that, although half of Acts centers on Paul, Acts never directly quotes from the Pauline epistles nor does it even mention Paul writing letters. Discrepancies between the Pauline epistles and Acts would further support the conclusion that the author of Acts did not have access to those epistles when composing Acts.[SUP][7][/SUP][SUP][8][/SUP]
Other theories about Acts' sources are more controversial. Some historians believe that Acts borrows phraseology and plot elements from Euripides' play The Bacchae.[SUP][9][/SUP] and from Virgil's Aeneid.[SUP][10][/SUP] Some feel that the text of Acts shows evidence of having used the Jewish historian Josephus as a source (in which case it would have to have been written sometime after 94 AD).[SUP][11][/SUP] For example, R. I. Pervo dates Acts to the first quarter of the 2nd century.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acts_of_the_Apostles

Ne, i opet ne, Dela nisu pisana kada je bilo zivo hiljade "svedoka".

Cetvrti:

Pavle nije poznavao Isusa, on je imao "viziju". Nije bio svedok navodnih dogadjaja, nije ni tvrdio da je bio svedok navodnog raspeca.

Sve u svemu, kriterijumi su dobri, ali nisu ispunjeni. Ni blizu. Opet si sebi pucao u nogu i sam si izneo dokaze da jevandjelja nisu pouzdana i da im se ne moze verovati.
 
Poslednja izmena:
Član
Učlanjen(a)
28.03.2013
Poruka
13.255
Evo malo ozbiljne teologije u vezi Isusa i jevandjelja:

Kod:
http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/70912/june-20-2006/bart-ehrman

Kod:
http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/224128/april-09-2009/bart-ehrman

Hehe, bas sam se nasmejao, voditelj je super :dtyste:
 
Član
Učlanjen(a)
28.03.2013
Poruka
13.255
A Major Proof of the Bible...

Ovo ne dokazuje nista..
Jedini validan argument da je sve ovo istina, bio bi da su apostoli stradali mucenickom smrcu zbog svog verovanja u vaskrslog Hrista.
Po tradiciji svi su oni stradali mucenickom smrcu, Petar je razapet na obrnutom krstu itd...
Ali gde su dokazi iz istorije za to? Naravno nema ih... Daj mi dokaze, i ja bih voleo da se to dokaze...
 
Član
Učlanjen(a)
02.11.2012
Poruka
1.746
Ovo ne dokazuje nista..
Jedini validan argument da je sve ovo istina, bio bi da su apostoli stradali mucenickom smrcu zbog svog verovanja u vaskrslog Hrista.
Po tradiciji svi su oni stradali mucenickom smrcu, Petar je razapet na obrnutom krstu itd...
Ali gde su dokazi iz istorije za to? Naravno nema ih... Daj mi dokaze, i ja bih voleo da se to dokaze...

U principu, ni mucenicka ili bilo kakva smrt u ime vere ne dokazuje da je ono u sta veruju tacno. Dokazuje da im je vera jaka ali nista vise od toga. Uvek imas primer sa bombasima samoubicama. Imas mnogo primera u kojima su ljudi spremni da rizikuju mnogo toga, ukljucujuci sopstveni zivot ali nam nista ne govori o istinitosti onoga u sta oni veruju.
 
Član
Učlanjen(a)
28.03.2013
Poruka
13.255
U principu, ni mucenicka ili bilo kakva smrt u ime vere ne dokazuje da je ono u sta veruju tacno. Dokazuje da im je vera jaka ali nista vise od toga. Uvek imas primer sa bombasima samoubicama. Imas mnogo primera u kojima su ljudi spremni da rizikuju mnogo toga, ukljucujuci sopstveni zivot ali nam nista ne govori o istinitosti onoga u sta oni veruju.

I to je tacno i u potpunosti se slazem, ali da bar znamo da su oni bili uvereni u nesto, bilo to i njihova masta, vizija,halucinacija svejedno. A ni to nemamo u istoriji...
 
Član
Učlanjen(a)
03.06.2010
Poruka
14.301
:roll:
tipična glupa ateistička tupljenja "tada su ljudi živjeli manje". :haha: Pa što si onda poredio Harija Potera i Jevanđelja. Djela su pisana odmah nakon Lukinog Jevanđelja. On ih je i pisao. Svo ti je znanje sa wikipedie. Prvo je napisao Matej Jevanđelje. Ne znaš da je jedan naučnik obišao srednjovjekovne grobove i otkrio da životni vijek ljudi u middle age je bio isti kao i danas. Notorna glupost i laž da su manje tada a i prije ljudi živjeli. A po tvojoj nazovi logici onda ni Ilijada nije autentična ni druge knjige.

Pazi ovo Drugi:
"Mateja nije pisan 37 godina posle navodnog dogadjaja nego 50-60 godina nakon navodnog dogadjaja." pa niko nije ni rekao 100% tada u periodu 65.-75. se računa, niko ne zna tačno kada je pisano. Ajd kada je tačno napisana knjiga "Istorija" Herodot?????

Da je Isus postojao i da je vaskrsnuo ovdje je jasno. Jesus: Evidence, ancient historical sources - Part 1 of 2 - YouTube

Djela su napisana odmah nakon Lukinog Jevanđ. pošto je on autor djela. Lukino Jevanđelje je napisano 60.-75.

Ajd malo nešto saznaj o Bibliji. BIBLIJA - Podaci o Bibliji - YouTube

Otkrivenje Jovanovo – poslednja decenija prvog veka), a prva sačuvana kopija jednog novozavetnog spisa potiče iz 125. godine posle Hrista. To je fragment Jovanovog Jevanđelja - pronađen u Egiptu, što mnogo govori o rasprostranjenosti tog spisa još u ono vreme. To je veoma značajno zato što su skeptični nemački teolozi uporno tvrdili da četvrto Jevanđelje nije sastavljeno, u najmanju ruku, pre 160. godine. Većina prepisa Novog zaveta datira iz trećeg i četvrtog veka, pa je vremenski raspon između originala i pronađenih prepisa 30 – 350 godina. (Kad imamo na umu velika progonstva prvih hrišćana, praćena spaljivanjem njihovih spisa, ne treba da nas čudi što nema sačuvanih kopija iz prvog veka.) Poređenja radi, najstarija sačuvana kopija Homerove Ilijade načinjena je čitavih 500 godina posle originala. Kod Tacitovih i Cezarovih dela taj raspon iznosi 1000 godina, kod Platonovih 1200, kod Aristotelovih i Sofoklovih 1400, a kod Evripidovih 1500 godina. Takođe treba zapaziti da su kopije Novog zaveta pronađene na veoma različitim lokacijama – Egipat, Palestina, Sirija, Turska, Grčka, Italija, što dodatno doprinosi njihovoj uverljivosti jer umanjuje mogućnost zavere – dogovora oko netačnog prikaza novozavetnih događaja. znakovi pored puta :arrow:

E kako si se zeznuo pa periodi od pisanja originala do prvih kopija npr. Tacitovih i Cezarovih djela je 1000 god. pa da li po tebi te knjige nisu autentične? ;)

Što se tiče Luke za tvoju inf. da je danas živ bio bi minimalno doktor nauka. Itekako je bilo dosta svjedoka. U Bibliji je napisan samo ono najznačajnije, jasno je napisan dio da se još toga dosta desilo i da nije sve napisano. Što znači da je još više bilo svjedoka.

Ni ne znaš da je biblijska arheologija jedno od najbolje dokazanih arheologija.

Ajd sada malo ovo. Danilov Valtazar. Danilo izvještava da je Valtazar bio vavilonski car u vreme kad su Persijanci osvojili Vavilon. Sve do kasnih 1800-tih sve su liste vavilonskih careva tvrdile da je posljednji vavilonski car bio Nabonid. To je sumnjičave naučnike navelo na zaključak da je Valtazar izmišljena ličnost koju je Danilo smislio. Međutim, glinene tablice pisane klinastim pismom, otkrivene od 1860. naovamo jasno pokazuju da je Valtazar bio suvladar - delio je presto - sa svojim ocem Nabonidom. Poznato je da se Nabonid u vreme osvajanja Vavilona nalazio na drugom kraju zemlje i da je u Vavilonu kraljevao Valtazar. :arrow:

400 reasons in archaeology to believe the bible - YouTube

Ako te mrzi pola sata da gledaš onda možeš ovo malo kraće skoro 3 min.

Scientific discoveries prove the Bible is real history - YouTube

Tako da Jevnađelja jesu pouzdana. Vidiš Bibliji su se smijali kada je u njoj spomenuti Hetiti, a danas svi šute, začepili gubice, nijedna značajna istorijska knjiga više ne izostavlja taj drevni narod. A sve do otkrića (18. vijek) Biblija je ismijavana i oni koji joj vjeruju. Tako da se Stratufe možeš smijati koliko hoćeš, ali na kraju će istina pobijediti.

A sada 02 - External Evidence for the Truth of the Gospels by Timothy McGrew - YouTube
 
Član
Učlanjen(a)
02.11.2012
Poruka
1.746
@Tripo

Ne, ne znam da jedan naucnik iskopavao srednjovekovne grobove. To je resilo svu misteriju. Nema potrebe da se vise razmislja o tome.
Prvo jevandjelje nije napisao Mateja nego Marko a Matejino je uglavnom plagijat na Markovo. Sto se znanja sa vikipedije tice, imas reference pa proveri. To nisu informacije tipa "znas da je jedan naucnik kopao grobove" i lokalni pop odnosno koji god lokalni vodja kulta kome pripadas "je rekao da je Matejino jevandjelje prvo".
Prvo si prepisao informaciju da je napisano 37 godina posle Hrista (usput, koje godine je bilo navodno Hristovo raspece?) a sad tuc-muc pa ne zna se tacno mozda u rasponu od 10 godina... toliko o tvojim "argumentima".
Sto se Luke tice i njegovo jevandjelje je "pozajmljivalo" od Markovog:
Most contemporary scholars regard Mark as a source used by Luke (see Markan Priority).[SUP][70][/SUP] If it is true that Mark was written around the destruction of the Temple of Jerusalem, around 70,[SUP][71][/SUP] they theorize that Luke would not have been written before 70. Some who take this view believe that Luke's prediction of the destruction of the temple could not be a result of Jesus predicting the future but with the benefit of hindsight regarding specific details. They believe that the discussion in Luke 21:5-30 is specific enough (more specific than Mark's or Matthew's) that a date after 70 seems likely.[SUP][72][/SUP][SUP][73][/SUP] These scholars have suggested dates for Luke from 75 to 100. Support for a later date comes from a number of reasons. Differences of chronology, "style", and theology suggest that the author of Luke-Acts was not familiar with Paul's distinctive theology but instead was writing a decade or more after his death, by which point significant harmonization between different traditions within Early Christianity had occurred.[SUP][74][/SUP] Furthermore, Luke-Acts has views on Jesus' divine nature, the end times, and salvationthat are similar to the those found in Pastoral epistles, which are often seen as pseudonymous and of a later date than the undisputed Pauline Epistle
Lukino jevandjelje je pisano izmedju 75. i 100. godine a Dela posle, valjda ti je jasno da s pisana krajem prvog veka.
Druga stvar od 5000 kopija, na stranu sto je ogromna vecina iz kasnijeg perioda, prakticno nemas kopije sa identicnim sadrzajem. Znakovi pored puta.:red: I jos nesto, da naprave sledecu kopiju Harija Potera za 500 godina, knjiga je i dalje fantazija. Da li je autenticna, ako je kopija precizna onda je kopija autenticna. Da li je radnja u istorijskom smislu autenticna? Nije, i dalje je fantazija.
Jos nesto bitno, samo zato sto neko tvrdi da ima mnooogoo svedoka, ne mora da znaci da je istina. Gde su ti svedoci? Ko su ti svedoci?
Evo, pre neki dan sam digao trolejbus iznad glave, imam mnooogoo svedoka. I taj dan se desilo jos mnooogooo toga sto znaci da imam jos vise svedoka.:stupid:
Sto se arheologije tice, biblijska "arheologija" je bas posebna. Stalno iskopavaju dzinove, divove, svakih par godina nalaze po jednu Nojevu barku...
Mrzi me da pogledam ovo za Danila i ne razumem kakve veze ima sa bilo cim. Sve i da je naveo tacan podatak za postojanje neke osobe ne znaci da je ostalo tacno. Radnja spajdermena se desava u Njujorku, samo zato sto Njujork postoji ne znaci postoji i spajedrmen.
 
Član
Učlanjen(a)
03.06.2010
Poruka
14.301
Samo se nastavi :stupid: možda ti to malo i pomogne. Samo nemoj u zid.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Napisao Stratuf

Ne, ne znam da jedan naucnik iskopavao srednjovekovne grobove. To je resilo svu misteriju. Nema potrebe da se vise razmislja o tome.
Prvo jevandjelje nije napisao Mateja nego Marko a Matejino je uglavnom plagijat na Markovo. Sto se znanja sa vikipedije tice, imas reference pa proveri. To nisu informacije tipa "znas da je jedan naucnik kopao grobove" i lokalni pop odnosno koji god lokalni vodja kulta kome pripadas "je rekao da je Matejino jevandjelje prvo".
Prvo si prepisao informaciju da je napisano 37 godina posle Hrista (usput, koje godine je bilo navodno Hristovo raspece?) a sad tuc-muc pa ne zna se tacno mozda u rasponu od 10 godina... toliko o tvojim "argumentima".
Sto se Luke tice i njegovo jevandjelje je "pozajmljivalo" od Markovog:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Odg.

U baš mi je wikipedia strašan izvor, posebno za ove stvari. Pazi ovo Luka pozajmljivao od Marka. :haha: Luka je bio najobrazovaniji od svih njih. Sada sam vidio na wikici (koja ti je jedini izvor inf.) da je Markovo Jevanđ. poslužilo kao izvor Lukinog. Ali su upali u jednu kontradikciju. Markovo su stavili da datira od 60.-80. dok su za Lukino naveli 60. godinu. :haha:

Ali si se zeznuo, upravo je dokazano da su sva 4 Jevanđ. pisana nezavisno jedno od drugog. Naravno nijedan dokaz nije dat za tvrdnju da je Markovo poslužilo kao izvor Lukinom. Vidiš Lukino je literarno najbolje napisano. Eto koliko ne pratiš savremena istraživanja. Do nedavno se vjerovalo da je Grk, ali nije. Luka je Jevrejin, samo je najviše bio u Grčkoj pa je njegov grčki najbolji.

Markovo Jevanđ. datira 65/70 *Gde stoji kosa crta, prvi datum je precizniji dok je drugi slobodniji.


Dok je Lukino Jevanđelje pisano 60/75 prema tome mogao je samo u tvojim snovima da mu bude uzor. Upadaš sam sebi u stomak. Luka je bio najpismeniji, pa je valjda trebao uzor od Marka. :wink:

Krajem prvog vijeka je napisano Otkrivenje i zadnje Jevanđelje 90-110

S tim da je prvi datum precizniji. Otkrivenje oko 95. god.

naučnik kojeg sam spomenuo nije kopao grobove nego obilazio one grobove koji još postoje. Na njima lijepo stoji godina rođenja i smrti.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Stratuf

Lukino jevandjelje je pisano izmedju 75. i 100. godine a Dela posle, valjda ti je jasno da s pisana krajem prvog veka.
Druga stvar od 5000 kopija, na stranu sto je ogromna vecina iz kasnijeg perioda, prakticno nemas kopije sa identicnim sadrzajem. Znakovi pored puta.:red: I jos nesto, da naprave sledecu kopiju Harija Potera za 500 godina, knjiga je i dalje fantazija. Da li je autenticna, ako je kopija precizna onda je kopija autenticna. Da li je radnja u istorijskom smislu autenticna? Nije, i dalje je fantazija.
Jos nesto bitno, samo zato sto neko tvrdi da ima mnooogoo svedoka, ne mora da znaci da je istina. Gde su ti svedoci? Ko su ti svedoci?
Evo, pre neki dan sam digao trolejbus iznad glave, imam mnooogoo svedoka. I taj dan se desilo jos mnooogooo toga sto znaci da imam jos vise svedoka.:stupid:

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________


odg.

Poređnje sa Harijem Poterom ti je glupo, bolje nemoj to da radiš ispadaš smiješan. Onda po tebi ispada da svako djelo nije pouzdano.

E kako si se zeznuo, ne poznaješ tradiciju starih naroda posebno Jevreja. Pa nije tada bilo kamera, diktafona itd. usmena riječ je bila jak argument. Kako nisu bitni svjedoci. Pa to je ključno u sudskom procesu. Pa danas mnogi ljudi traže dva svjedoka da im se posvjedoči da su negdje radili ili slično. Ti sve gledaš iz ove perspektive. Ali nisi u pravu, svi pravni eksperti kada uzmu tadašnje vrijeme i riječ svjedoka uzimaju je kao najjači dokaz autentičnosti. Evo koliko slab znaš ovo o čemu si postavio pitanje tj. temu. Porediš glupost od Harija Potera iz 21. vijeka sa Biblijom koja nema veze sa tom knjigom, iz 1. vijeka n. e. A danas se novine štampaju (u hiljadama, 100 hiljada i milionima primjeraka) gdje možeš sam iskucati neki tekst i danas da ga kopiraš u hiljade primjeraka. I to ti je argument. Mislim stvarno...
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Napisao Stratuf

Sto se arheologije tice, biblijska "arheologija" je bas posebna. Stalno iskopavaju dzinove, divove, svakih par godina nalaze po jednu Nojevu barku...
Mrzi me da pogledam ovo za Danila i ne razumem kakve veze ima sa bilo cim. Sve i da je naveo tacan podatak za postojanje neke osobe ne znaci da je ostalo tacno. Radnja spajdermena se desava u Njujorku, samo zato sto Njujork postoji ne znaci postoji i spajedrmen.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Uvijek te mrzi da pogledaš ono što ti ne odg. Itekako ima veze to je jedna knjiga. Iako govorimo o Jevanđeljima. Opet imaš glupo poređenje, spajdermen je izmišljen lik. Što se tiče biblijske arheologije ona je jedna d najbolje dokazanih grana arheologije. Naravno nisi smio pogledati linkove.

Vidiš svi su okomili na Bibliju, niko i ne spominje stare knjige niti iko pomišlja da dovede u pitanje njihovu pouzdanost. To sve govori.

Jevanđelja i cijela Biblija su pouzdane sa svih aspekata.

Četiri Jevanđelja. Arheološka otkrića sve više podupiru istorijske i geografske tvrdnje četvorice pisaca koji su zabeležili Isusov život: Mateja, Marka, Luke i Jovana. Između ovih otkrića su i ova:

Jovan spominje zgradu nazvanu Vitezda u Jerusalimu u kojoj se nalazio ribnjak. Arheološka su iskapanja otkrila zgradu koja u celosti odgovara Jovanovom opisu. Arheolozi su našli, po svemu sudeći, luksuznu kuću Kaife, velikog sveštenika koji je predsedao Isusovom suđenju. Tu je veliko dvorište, u kojem će se Petar triput odreći Hrista, i zgrada dovoljno velika da se održi suđenje. svetlost i.

Samo za razilku od tvog smiješnog poređenja Jovan nije spomenuo spajdermena nego jednu zgradu. Tvoji dokazi su spajdermen i Hari Poter. Ono što ja iznosim da su drugi dali se može provjeriti arheologijom.

Ipak Hari P. i spajdermen ostaju fantazija, a ovo je ozbiljna nauka. Dakle ono što ti zagovaraš je fantazija.
__________________________________________________________________________________
Napisao Stratuf

a sad tuc-muc pa ne zna se tacno mozda u rasponu od 10 godina... toliko o tvojim "argumentima".
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Odg.

Sada pogledaj ova djela i kada su napisana otprilike.

Tacitus,
Letopis 100-120--------------

Herodot,
Istorija 430-425 BC---------------------

Ticijes,
Istorija 410-400 BC-----------------------

Eto kako ti je argument loš.

Tako i za trolejbus. :wink: Valjda je i prije 2000. god. bio trojelbus u Jerusalimu. :lol:
 
Poslednja izmena:
Član
Učlanjen(a)
02.11.2012
Poruka
1.746
Auu Tripo,
Nasli su zgradu, sto znaci da se sve opisano u jevandjeljima desilo.:stupid: Jovan jeste spomenuo spajedrmena (Isus) i opisao je zgradu (Njujork). Strasno, nasli su veliku kucu u Jerusalimu. U njoj su mogli stanovati gremlini i ruzicasti jednorozi sto znaci da je to sigurno tako.

Sto se tice jevandjelja i koje je starije, dali su dokaze ali si ti izgleda nepismen. I Luka nije krao samo od Marka nego i od istoricara.
Ponovicu ti opet:

Most contemporary scholars regard Mark as a source used by Luke (see Markan Priority).[SUP][70][/SUP] If it is true that Mark was written around the destruction of the Temple of Jerusalem, around 70,[SUP][71][/SUP] they theorize that Luke would not have been written before 70. Some who take this view believe that Luke's prediction of the destruction of the temple could not be a result of Jesus predicting the future but with the benefit of hindsight regarding specific details. They believe that the discussion in Luke 21:5-30 is specific enough (more specific than Mark's or Matthew's) that a date after 70 seems likely.[SUP][72][/SUP][SUP][73][/SUP] These scholars have suggested dates for Luke from 75 to 100. Support for a later date comes from a number of reasons. Differences of chronology, "style", and theology suggest that the author of Luke-Acts was not familiar with Paul's distinctive theology but instead was writing a decade or more after his death, by which point significant harmonization between different traditions within Early Christianity had occurred.[SUP][74][/SUP] Furthermore, Luke-Acts has views on Jesus' divine nature, the end times, andsalvationthat are similar to the those found in Pastoral epistles, which are often seen as pseudonymous and of a later date than the undisputedPauline Epistle

Ako nisi razumeo Markovo se datira oko 70. godine a Lukino izmedju 75. i 100. godine. Mozes da zabadas glavu u pesak ali samo zato sto ne zelis da priznas sebi da su jevandjelja busna to nece promeniti nista.

467px-Relationship_between_synoptic_gospels.jpg

According to the majority viewpoint, Mark was the first gospel written. Matthew and Luke then used Mark as a source, as well as a hypothetical sayings gospel known as Q. Matthew and Luke also included unique material, and the sources for this material are designated M and L, respectively.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synoptic_gospels

Markan priority is the hypothesis that the
Gospel of Mark was the first written of the three Synoptic Gospels, and that the two other synoptic evangelists, Matthew and Luke, used Mark's Gospel as one of their sources. The theory of Markan priority is today accepted by the majority of New Testament scholars[SUP][

[/SUP]
Main article: Markan priority
Most modern scholars agree that Luke used the Gospel of Mark as one of his sources.[SUP][26][/SUP] The understanding that Mark was the first of the synoptic gospels and that it served as a source for Matthew and Luke is foundational to modern critical scholarship.[SUP][15][/SUP]
Mark's gospel is quite short, and written in Koine Greek (that is, common Greek). It provides a general chronology from Jesus' baptism to the empty tomb. Luke, however, sometimes presented events in a different order to more clearly support his emphases. For example, Mark has Jesus recruit his first disciples before he has performed any miracles, and Luke moves the recruitment scene to a point after Jesus' first miracles

Markan priority - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

No dobro, tebi cinjenice nisu bitne.

Sto se tice tvog dozivljaja da svi napadaju bibliju a ne ostale anticke knjige, pa recimo da se za Odiseju ne tvrdi da je tacan prikaz istorijskih dogadjaja. Kada smo vec kod Odiseje i ona je vrlo verovatno posluzila autoru jevandjelja po Marku za Isusove bajkovite avanture.

Homeric tradition. Some stories, such as that of "Legion" in Mark 5:9 [SUP][20][/SUP] (paralleling Polyphemus[SUP][21][/SUP]) and that of the woman with an alabaster box of ointment in Mark 14:3-9 [SUP][22][/SUP] (paralleling Eurycleia[SUP][23][/SUP]), may be based on Homer’sOdyssey according to Dennis R. MacDonald and Richard Carrier

Kada vec pominjes pravni sistem, danas bi autori jevandjelja bili u zatvoru za kradju tudjih mitova.

P.S. Tvoja tuc-muc apologetika je vezana za tekst koji si stavio kao "dokaz" i u kome se tvrdi da je 37 godina posle navodnog Isusovog raspeca Mateja napisao jevandjelje. Maloumna tvrdnja na koju sam morao da ti skrenem paznju. Kada si video koliko je maloumna onda si krenuo na drugu stranu i tuc-muc pa dobro nije to tako, tuc-muc pisano je u plus minus deset godina tuc-muc, zgrade, Isus, tuc-muc.
 
Poslednja izmena:
Natrag
Top