Adventizam i Trojstvo [da li su rani adventisti verovali u Trojstvo?]

Član
Učlanjen(a)
06.05.2012
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2.380
Pa eto Isabeleta, vidi ko je u pravu, a sa prekrojavanjem knjige još je gore, jer se može usporediti original na engleskom i prijevodom moga kolege - sve crno na bijelo.

Sve sam pročitala i razumjela što želiš reći, ali to ćeš ti s bezimenom riješiti.
Ja nisam toliko upoznata s poviješću adventističkog pokreta i ne/vjerovanja u Presv. Trojstvo i općenito izbjegavam diskusiju na temama o Trojstvu i božanstvu Isusovu. Ja vjerujem u te istine. I sve drugo (sva ljudska razmišljanja i naklapanja) koja su nastala nakon Nicejskog sabora smatram bezvrijednim.

Istina je da riječ " Trojstvo" ne postoji u Bibliji, ali vjerovanje savršeno proizlazi iz Isusovih Riječi. I nijedan Papa nije ništa nadodao tom vjerovanju. Točno je da je to teško spoznati i još teže objasniti, ali ljudskom umu nije teško prihvatiti činjenicu da Bog ostaje tajna i da je nedokučiv i da samo "Duh sve proniče, i dubine Božje", ne čovjekov duh, već Božji. Čovjek je samo stvorenje, a Bog Stvoritelj i ono što On jest i želi biti, ne kako Ga mi zamišljamo.

P. S. Pričala mi je jedna žena da je srela na Dolcu muslimana koji je prodavao papriku. I često su prijatno i prijateljski razgovarali. Čovjek je govorio kako je dobro što vjerujemo u istog Boga, a onda mu je žena rekla: Da, Bog je isti, ali mi vjerujemo u jednog Boga koji je Presveto Trojstvo..."
I čovjek se naljuti i izgrdi ženu... Zašto? Ne razumijem zašto nekim ljudima toliko smeta nešto što ne mogu spoznati?
 
Učlanjen(a)
27.03.2023
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737
Ne lažem ništa čak i onaj citat što sam postavila više govori da su vaši pioniri bili zbunjeni vezano za trojstvo. Nisu sigurno govorili da je sotonski vjerovati u Svetog Duha kao osobu. Ti vjeruj što ti želiš ja ti ne zamjeram. Taj koji je prevodio nije znao vjerojatno da ne prevodi original, nije provjeravao.
 
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Učlanjen(a)
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R.A. Underwood članci iz 1898 o Svetom Duhu možete pogledati u ASD arhivi

Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed ? Review and Herald Vol. 75 No. 17 —April 26, 1898
The baptism of the Holy Spirit Review and Herald Vol. 75 No. 18
—May 3, 1898 Will you receive Him ?
Review and Herald Vol. 75 No. 19 —May 10, 1898
The Holy Spirit a Person Review and Herald Vol. 75 No. 20 —May 17, 1898
The Holy Ghost and His work Review and Herald Vol. 75 No. 21 —May 24, 189

THE HOLY SPIRIT A PERSON​

———
R. A. UNDERWOOD

(Mesopotamia, Ohio.)

———

[originally published in The Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, May 17, 1898]​


Is THE work that has been noticed in these articles done by an influence?—There is an influence and a power, it is true; but we should not make the mistake of believing in an influence simply, when we so much need the One who carries the influence and power. The Holy Spirit is Christ’s personal representative in the field; and he is charged with the work of meeting Satan, and defeating this personal enemy of God and his government.

It seems strange to me, now, that I ever believed that the Holy Spirit was only an influence, in view of the work he does. But we want the truth because it is truth, and we reject error because it is error, regardless of any views we may formerly have held, or any difficulty we may have had, or may now have, when we view the Holy Spirit as a person. Light is sown for the righteous.


Satan’s scheme is to destroy all faith in the personality of the Godhead,—the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost,—also in his own personality; and when this is done, he would have men deify the state, and set that up as a personal god, to be worshiped and obeyed.

Dr. Adler, as quoted in Harper’s Weekly of Nov. 27, 1897, voiced a growing sentiment when he said that “men are gradually passing from the belief in a personal God,” and that “religion based on that belief is losing its vitality.” He further said: “In the state let us find the personal deity which is passing out of men’s lives. Let the state be the object of our worship. Let us make it sacred; and when we have done so, the state will have taken the place of the personification. Let the state be that personification.” Satan knows that he can control the state, and use it to oppress the servants of God, as he always has done. Let us beware lest Satan shall lead us to take the first step in destroying our faith in the personality of this person of the Godhead,—the Holy Ghost.​

FORMER DIFFICULTIES.​


It was once hard for me to see how a spirit could be a person; but when I saw “that God is a spirit ” (John 4: 24), and that he is no less a person; when I saw that the last Adam (Christ) “was made a quickening spirit” (1 Cor. 15:45), and that he is a person; when I saw that the angels are “spirits” (Heb. 1:7, 14), and even that the fallen angels, called “devils,” are said to be “unclean spirits” (Luke 8:26, 29; Acts 19:15, 16); and knowing that all these are persons, I could understand better how the Holy Spirit can be a person.


Another question perplexed me; namely, If the Holy Spirit is a person, how can he be omnipresent? While we “see through a glass, darkly,” and should always bear in mind that “if any man think that he knoweth anything, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know,” and that we know nothing at all only as God has revealed it to us by his Spirit, yet let us look at the other spirit for a moment, and we may see something that will help us to understand this question. “Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience.” Eph. 2:2. Here the prince of the power of the air, in other places called the “prince of this world,” or Satan, is called the spirit (singular number) “that now worketh in the children of disobedience.”


That Satan is the spirit referred to in this scripture, and that he is omnipresent, working for the destruction of the human family, is plain from this and many other scriptures. See Zech. 3:1, 2; 1 Peter 5:8. If, then, Satan, who was Lucifer, a shining seraph, “who, next to Christ, had been most honored of God, and who stood highest in power and glory among the inhabitants of heaven” (“Great Controversy,” page 493), is a person, and yet omnipresent, I can see that Christ would clothe his personal representative, the Holy Ghost, who now stands next to Christ, with at least no less power than Satan has.


But how is Satan omnipresent? Can he be personally everywhere?—No and yes. He can be, and is, everywhere present in this world by his representatives,—the fallen angels, who “kept not their first estate,” and who have given themselves up to carry out Satan’s plans, and execute his work against Christ and his loyal subjects.” Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, and prevailed not. . . . And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.” Rev. 12:7-9.


That this warfare is still going on, and will continue to the end of this world, is clear from verse 17 of this same chapter. Christ has put into the field, as his personal representative, the Holy Ghost, who is in charge of all the forces of God’s kingdom to overthrow Satan and his angels; and the Holy Ghost is the only one to whom is delegated this authority from God. “The prince of the power of evil can be held in check only by the power of God in the third person of the Godhead, the Holy Spirit.”—”Special Testimony,” No. 10, page 37. God and Christ have placed all the angels and the power of the throne of omnipotence under him, to overthrow the rebellion against God’s government.

The prophet Ezekiel had a wonderful view of the workings of God’s throne. “The wheel-like complications that appeared to the prophet to be involved in such confusion, were under the guidance of an infinite hand. The Spirit of God, revealed to him as moving and directing these wheels, brought harmony out of confusion; so the whole world was under his control. Myriads of glorified beings were ready at his word to overrule the power and policy of evil men, and bring good to his faithful ones.”—”Testimony,” No. 33, page 280. Hence we see that the Holy Spirit, the third person of the Godhead, has at his disposal “myriads,” or “an innumerable company,” of holy angels, who go, at his command, to the rescue and to the aid of every child of God. “Whithersoever the Spirit was to go, they went.” Eze. 1: 20.


In my former difficulties there was one more point to be settled; and when that was made clear, I saw, as I had never seen before, the wonderful workings of God’s kingdom. It was this: Is it a settled principle, laid down in the Bible, that when one in authority and power delegates to another a work, with power to execute the same, and the work is accomplished by the one entrusted with it, the work is accredited to the one directing and delegating such power?—Yes; this is a principle recognized by God, and accepted by all civilized nations.


Let us look at this principle. Christ was delegated with authority by the Father to represent the Father. Hence Christ says: “He that hath seen me hath seen the Father.” Why?—Because he was the authorized representative of the Father in creating and redeeming the world. Christ acted under the authority received from the Father; and the work committed to the Son, and accomplished by the Son, is accredited to the Father. See John 1:10; Heb. 1:1,3; John 5:26, 30; 6:57. The Holy Ghost being Christ’s representative, and Christ being the Father’s representative, the Holy Ghost represents both the Son and the Father; and the work done by the Holy Spirit is accredited to those whom he represents, for he is their agent.


Again: the Holy Spirit being in charge of all the holy angels, whatever is done by them under the authority of the Holy Spirit, is accredited to the work of the Holy Spirit. And this should be so; for the authority comes from the one directing the work: therefore whatever the angels of God do by the command of the Holy Spirit, and acting as his representative, the Spirit is the one that does the work. It is through these angels that the Holy Spirit does his work and manifests the power of God. “And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with the angels of his power.” 2 Thess. 1:7, margin.


The following extracts from the pen of Mrs. E. G. White are comprehensive, covering the whole field: “By the holy beings surrounding his throne, the Lord keeps up a constant communication with the inhabitants of the earth. “—REVIEW AND HERALD, July 20, 1897. “All the miracles of Christ performed for the afflicted and suffering were, by the power of God, through the ministration of angels.” “All the blessings from God to man are through the ministration of holy angels.”—”Spirit of Prophecy,” Vol. II, pages 67, 68. “Are they not all ministering spirits?”
P.s. ispričavam se što je netko tko je napravio onu sliku sa citatom ASD pionira Cottrella postavio krivu godinu, iako nisam za to kriva osobno ja ali nema veze ispričavam se u ime tog čovjeka. Vjerojatno nije namjerno htio sebi postavit autogol. Provjerite cijeli članak u ASD arhivi.
Definicija termina Godhead https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/godhead
 
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Član
Učlanjen(a)
28.03.2013
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Mire, da je točno ovo što tvrdiš, da Kainos ne zna što podržava, pa samo zbog neznanja podržava "krivotvorine subotarskih bitangi", onda bi Kainos tebi bio zahvalan do neba, i zahvaljivao ti što si ga izvukao iz "jazbine oca laži

Upoznao sam mu brata, odnosno video ga licno, i ako je bar malo kao njegov brat, onda je dobar covek. Verujem da jeste. Ne verujem da bilo sta skriva i falsifikuje namerno.. On je sigurno ubedjen u to..

mire000, niko nije prekrojio knjigu. Moj kolega koji je preveo knjigu ide u adv. crkvu i vjeruje u trojstvo. Ja sam mu platio prije 5 godina da prevede jednu knjigu, čovjek nije znao o čemu knjiga govori. bez imena ne govori istinu, zar nisi vidio kako je postavila neki citati od adv. pionira Kotrela kao sliku i kao on vjeruje u trojstvo. Onda sam ja postavio taj puni citat gdje čovjek govori skroz drugačije u što se možeš uvjeriti. Znači 100% moj kolega nije prevodio da ugodi antitrinitarcima, jer nije znao o čemu knjiga govori. Mogu ti poslati englesko izdanje i hrvatsko pa ti vidi je li prekrojio. Znači ti si bez imenoj napisao "neću provjeravati jer ti vjerujem". Bar ti ne nasjedaš na laži. Kao što je slapu misija boriti se protiv EGW, tako je njoj misija boriti se protiv adv. antitrinitaraca. Malo malo, ona postavi neke citate od pionira samo da dokaže da oni vjeruju u trojstvo. Ja ne kažem da nije bilo trojičara u crkvi, što se može i dokazati. Nije sad da meni ne vjeruješ.

Znas zasto ne verujem, ne tebi licno, jer znam da neces namerno lagati, vec tvojim antitrinitarijancima, zato sto sam ih uhvatio vise puta da lazu i namerno izvrcu reci crkvenih otaca. A i ti si postavio odbranu doktorata katolickog svestenika kao njegovu a u stvari je rec o brosuri Jehovinih Svedoka pod naslovom "Da li treba verovati u Trojstvo", i to sam ti napomenuo, ne znam da li si video taj odgovor. Znaci i tebi su brate podmetnuli lazi, a ti si naseo na to, nisi ni proverio. Ja te ne osudjujem niti bilo sta, samo ne mogu da nasednem na te lazi.

Ti tvoji antitrinitarijanci su poreklom od obracenih jehovista, tako je i nastao taj pokret.. Prihvatili su adventizam ali nisu se mogli ostaviti negiranja Trojstva..

Pokret je lazan brate i cela ta prica...


Evo razmisli o sledecem - "da li iko moze falsifikovati Bozju rec"? A kaze se da je EGW prorok i da su njene reci Bozje! Pa ko onda moze to promeniti???

Nisi u pravu, ona je i sama prihvatila Trojstvo na kraju, a u pocetku se vidi da je bila uzdrzana, to je jasno ako pazljivo citas..

Razumemo da termin trojstvo znači uniju tri osobe, ne pozicije, u jednom Bogu; tako da su Otac, Sin i Sveti Duh, najmanje troje, a najviše jedno.

Kako si ti iz ovoga shvatio da on negira Trojstvo? U ovom pasusu je on izneo sta su tada adventisti verovali u tom pogledu. Oni jesu negirali katolicko Trojstvo ali su imali i neko svoje shvatanje Trojstva, a kasnije su to jos jasnije uoblicili.
 
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Učlanjen(a)
27.03.2023
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Žao mi je danas da sam uopće čula za taj adventizam i šta ta vjerovanja od nekih ljudi rade. Trojstvo je Biblijsko možda ga i ne možemo shvatiti ali postoji. Sotonina najveća mržnja i ljubomora je bila usmjerena na Krista i na to što je On jednak svome Ocu. Čitala sam u jednoj staroj knjizi koja promovira automatske poruke, neko new age kršćanstvo iz 1915/1917 kako se demoni svojski trude da kršćanin ne vjeruje u to da je Isus Bog i da postoji trojstvo. Ja Kaionosa nisam vrijeđala i ako jesam ja se ispričavam i ne smeta meni što on ne vjeruje u trojstvo. James White je sam rekao da pustite ljude na miru vezano uz to vjerovanje. Evo prestati ću pisati pa vjeuj ti u svoje iluzije, nadam se da te to vjerovanje posvetilo na bolje Kainose, da si bolji čovjek.

Evo i vaša proročica nešto reče slično:

“I say, and have ever said, that I will not engage in controversy with any one in regard to the nature and personality of God. Let those who try to describe God know that on such a subject silence is eloquence. Let the Scriptures be read in simple faith, and let each one form his conceptions of God from his inspired word.No human mind can comprehend God. No man hath seen him at any time. We are as ignorant of God as little children. But as little children we may love and obey Him.”
 
Član
Učlanjen(a)
28.03.2013
Poruka
13.330
...
Nisam to znala za Gabrijela, hvala ti na info.
Haskell je koliko sam shvatila vjerovao u treću osobu Božanstva i ne znam da li je to točno ali je povezao Svetog Duha i Melhisedeka, pisao je adventističke biblijske lekcije u jednom periodu, svakako je vjerovao u osobu Svetog Duha, nije smatrao da je to nešto sotonski kao što pojedine njihove sekte tvrde da jest.
ScreenShot2021-12-08at9.04.19AM-659x1024.png
ScreenShot2021-12-08at9.04.40AM-670x1024.png

Jeste verovao je u neki oblik Trojstva i mislim da je vecina tako i verovala, a neki su opstruisali. To nije katilicko Trojstvo, katolicko su negirali, imali su svoje shvatanje toga. Isus im je u pocetku bio Sveti Duh (tj. "dusa Hristovog zivota"), i mislim da se to iz teksta da videti, da su verovali da je Isus Sveti Duh, pa polako menjaju to shvatanje, i pisu da je to ipak nezavisna treca osoba. I on ovde ide tim smerom da to dokaze..

Znaci, polako su napredovali u razumevanju, a oni to predstavljaju kao gotovu stvar!

Kad je ovo pisano? Jel EGW bila ziva u to vreme?

“I say, and have ever said, that I will not engage in controversy with any one in regard to the nature and personality of God. Let those who try to describe God know that on such a subject silence is eloquence. Let the Scriptures be read in simple faith, and let each one form his conceptions of God from his inspired word.No human mind can comprehend God. No man hath seen him at any time. We are as ignorant of God as little children. But as little children we may love and obey Him.”

Dakle i ona sama je bila uzdrzana po tom pitanju, i jasno je da je postojala rasprava o tome.

E sad, problem je sto oni tvrde da je neko falsifikovao njene spise i ubacio Trojstvo a ona to kao nije napisala..

Ja licno smatram da to nije istina, jer se jasno vidi iz spisa pionira da su postupno usvajali to verovanje, i da su na kraju prihvatili.

Evo ti da vidiš kako ona radi, postavi ovu sliku od pionira Kotrela i onda kad čovjek čita izgleda da on tu podržava trojstvo

A kakve veze ima Kortel sa Haskell-om?

I ajde se odlucite gde cete pisati, ne mogu da pratim, razvukli ste temu svuda..
 
Učlanjen(a)
27.03.2023
Poruka
737
Mire ni ja se više ne snalazim, znam samo da je Haskell do svoje penzije pisao njima te biblijske lekcije (mislim da do 1917) moram sve provjeriti da me Kainos ne napade za neku godinu ili ako nešto zaista i pogriješim, ispričati ću se, to ne znači da lažem odmah. Mislim da je ova biblijska lekcija za koju si me pitao godina 1914

Ovi ti je recimo iz 1906 a Ellen White je umrla 1915 i preporučila je svima njegove Biblijske lekcije
“The doctrine of the trinity is true when rightly understood. They are one in nature, one in purpose, and so perfect is that union, that Christ said, ” I and My Father are one.” “All things that the Father hath are Mine: therefore said I, that He shall take of Mine and show it unto you.” “At that day ye shall know that I am in the Father, and ye in Me, and I in you.” “That they all may be one, as Thou, Father, art in Me, and I in Thee, that they also may be one in Us : that the world may believe that Thou bast sent Me.” ” I in them, and Thou in Me, that they may be made perfect in one ; and that the world may know that Thou hast sent Me, and hast loved them, as Thou hast loved Me.” No human reasoning can explain this oneness. Certain it is, here is a union that is as much holier, higher, and perfect, as the heavens are higher than the earth. And it is possible for man to attain unto it through Christ.” ” (S. N. Haskell, The Bible Training School, February, 1906; pg 156)

Moje mišljenje je da je njena suzdržana izjava bila zbog svađa koje ne prestaju ni danas. Pa zaista i u Bibliji piše da ne možemo spoznati Boga no to ne znači da Biblija ne govori o Ocu i Sinu i Svetom Duhu. Meni ne smeta ako su oni anti-trinitarci a zašto bi njima smetalo ako na neutralnom forumu piše netko svoje. Ispravno vjerovanje je ništa ako nemamo milosrđa i ljubavi prema bližnjem čak i prema neprijatelju. Ellen White je pisala zaista o biblijskom kršćanstvu tužno je što su oni postali i gori kao što si sam negdje rekao, tako i izgleda, samo se svađaju međusobno i razdvojeni su u te neke male nezavisne skupine
 
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